Ashok :
Okay. We'll commence with the question-answer session.
Question :
The lives and devotion of the Masters can sometimes seem superhuman. Sant Ji and Somanath Ji spending decades in austerities and meditation, for example. Would Baba Ji be willing to share some of His personal struggles with the Path? Did He ever question His faith? What kept Him going before He reached the Form of the Master inside? How long did that take Him?
Baba Ji :
The question is right. A lot of Saints, when They come into this world, They have impressions of Their previous life above. So, They come already prepared and ready for this work, as They come into this life. And Their effort looks superhuman when They do it. Also, there are Saints Whom the other Saints grace, and with Their Mercy and Grace, They give Them all of that within. And They give Them the experience, and They make Them Saints. So, that also is with the Mercy of the other Masters. So, these are two types of Saints. So, if we look at the life of Swami Ji Maharaj, He was also an avatar in the sense that He had come all prepared to do this work of being a Saint, but He spent so much time in a dark hut, and He would survive only on eating one roti. So, He did all of that effort for eighteen years. It is important to have that pang of separation from God Almighty, from the Master, which enables us to do a lot of devotion. And the more we do our devotion, the more love, faith, and affection that we develop. So, oftentimes, the kind of pang of separation that we have is not as much as the Masters Who have come ready-made into this world. And, how strongly They feel, maybe as a normal human, that much is sometimes not possible. It is this pang of separation, which drives us in our devotion. When I came to Bombay and I attended one Satsang, which was on a tape, I had such a great impression that was created. And I had such a strong feeling of separation from the Master that, continuously, I was in that thought, and I was always thinking about it. And that, within a month and a half only, transformed and brought in a huge transformation within me. So, when I kept thinking about it, and there was such a strong urge to meet the Master, there was such a strong pang of separation there, that one day was feeling like a year. And I used to feel that if my breath stops, then I will never get to meet my Master. So, within a month and a half only, I decided that, and I asked the address, and I went to the ashram. So, the journey from Bombay to Bangalore is about twenty-four hours, and I boarded a bus to go to the ashram. And I reached early morning at the ashram. Usually, the time for Darshan was a little later, but Jamal Bhai was at the gate. He took me to Baba Somanath Ji and He allowed me to take His Darshan. When I went there to meet Him, His feet were down on the ground. Usually, He used to sit with His feet up, folded, but His feet were down. And when I bent to take His blessings, and I bowed down to Him for five minutes, ten minutes, I had completely lost the sense of where I was, what I was doing, and I had no sense of time there. So then, Baba Ji was trying to get me to sit up, but I had completely lost that sense of time there, and then, after a few minutes, I realized and I got up. Then, Baba Ji asked me, "Are you going to take Darshan and go back, or are you going to stay in the ashram and do seva?" So then, I told Baba Ji, "I want to do seva." And, thereafter, Baba Ji called Nayar, and then He asked Nayar Ji to give me a room to stay in the ashram. So, thereafter, I stayed at the ashram, and within about four to five months, I got the duty of guarding the periphery of the ashram. And, mostly, that was a very difficult seva. And, mostly, people often had their dinner, and then, they would go and do this difficult seva. And they would fall sick as a result. And, unlike them, I didn't have my dinner. And I used to then go on an empty stomach for this seva, and I felt that this is an opportunity that Baba Ji has given me to do Simran. So, I used to, continuously, do Simran during that seva. This went on for about a year and a half, and by doing that Simran every day, I developed such a strong pang of separation with Baba Ji that I always would like to see Him at all times. And I used to keep on going for Darshans. And it came to a point where Baba Ji told me not to attend the Satsang. And He gave me seva about one, one and a half kilometers away, to look after a field of coconut plantation there. So, what used to happen in that Satsang is, when I would watch Baba Ji and I would sit for Satsang, when I would listen to His Satsang, then I would start getting tears in my eyes. And that separation, that love and affection, was so strong that my soul would start withdrawing up in the Satsang itself. Now, probably that was not the time for the Grace of the Master, the Daya of the Master, at that time. So, He, therefore, instructed me not to sit in those Satsangs. And He told me to go and do the seva elsewhere. So then, I stopped attending the Satsang. However, I would keep watching Baba Ji go towards the hall, and once He would be seated for Satsang and the prarthana would start, then I would leave and go for my seva. So, whatever the Masters do for us, They always look at our benefit and do it. And, that way, in about one and a half years time, the attention of my soul would get withdrawn within. And this is only because of the Simran and the Grace of the Master. With Baba Somanath Ji, after that, I got the bliss of His company only for three years. So, after that, only about one and a half years after this, He was there. And after He left His body, I continued to work at the ashram and do seva in the ashram for another five years. And, thereafter, I moved to the Beta Ashram, which was in the hill, and I did seva there. I went there. I came to the Beta Ashram with the intention of doing meditation. There are a lot of caves in that hill where that ashram is. And I would sit there in the remembrance of the Master and doing my meditation. Now, this is largely due to impressions of previous lives. It is difficult for an ordinary human being to do this. Masters often, when They want to take seva from a soul and They want to get him to do the duty of succession in this, then They often give a difficult seva to that disciple. They make him do that Simran Bhajan. And They get all of that done from him. And, if he passes, then They see him fit for doing the seva and continuing Their work. And then, They ask him to do that. So, that way, Masters, some leave everything, and They do this meditation 24/7, and They are continuously in this.
And there are also people who stay in the families and who are doing their otherworldly duties, but who are always connected with Simran. Even those people, they see success in about one and a half years, where their soul also retracts inward and they get success in what they're doing. So, where they are also working and doing their duties and staying in their families, but their mind is connected at all times and is devoted and has love and affection for the Master, and is always connected there, and have a strong sense of separation from the Master, which drives them to do their Simran Bhajan, they also get success on this Path. They have to listen to the Teachings of the Master, and they have to go through those difficulties in life.
Question :
Since we are not permitted to share our inner experiences, I only hear the complaints about lack of experience. This can be discouraging. In truth, how many of us have already reached the Form of the Master inside? Are there advanced disciples who are permitted to share their inner experiences? Sant Ji publicly acknowledged a couple of western disciples to have attained the level of Sadhu, but I have never had a chance to meet them.
Baba Ji :
Sant Mat is a difficult Path. It is a Path where the sole objective of the soul is to go and meet the God Almighty. And it is not a path where we showcase success, and we showcase the preachings and make examples of each other. And, with that, what happens is, we oftentimes spend all our energies that we have gathered, the bhakti that we have done, or the devotion that we have done and, whatever we have gained in the process, is lost in this world only. And that is exactly the opposite of the objective that is intended in Sant Mat. So, we do not want to waste our energies getting back into this world. The only objective is to go back to God Almighty. And, therefore, it is important that we keep all this quiet and restricted, so that nobody wastes those kinds of energies in a show of strength, or a kind of showing off to each other. When we talk about our experiences to somebody, and we relate our experience to somebody else, then, unfortunately, that person feels jealous that they have not had such experiences. And we become egoistic that we have achieved so much in our meditation. And, with that, our progress also stops. All are not the same, and in the sangat, there are satsangis who have progressed well within, and when we sit in meditation, in common community in Satsang like this, then we find that our meditation has improved. This is also improved because of the influence of others who are sitting among us, who have progressed well within. When we sit in our respective homes, and we are trying to do meditation, the mind is more difficult to manage. And it is more difficult to do meditation and get that kind of concentration. When we sit together with others, then we see that one pumpkin, which is ripe, the other one also sees the color and becomes ripe. So that "rub-off effect" is there in this Satsang.
From the time of Guru Arjan Dev Ji, earlier, what used to happen was, when devotees would meditate, they would get experiences much faster. And they would experience all of these mystic powers, which would come naturally when one would progress within. And, oftentimes, they would spend these kinds of mystic powers in either cursing somebody or blessing somebody. And a lot of these energies and powers got wasted. After Guru Arjan Dev Ji, it was decided not to give such powers readily and easily to the devotees, and the Masters keep that progress in Their control. They keep it with Them, and when They find that the devotee is fit for being given that experience and given that power, then They give all of that. So, that power is given when the disciple has done his practice, and he has done his devotion and comes at the back of the Eye Center, then all the power that he has developed is given to him there. If, otherwise, also during death, when a devotee dies, whatever he has done in meditation, according to that, the Master comes, maybe a day before or two days before, or earlier, and depending on how much he has done his devotion, He enlightens that devotee and takes him inside. So, whatever Simran we have done, whatever devotion we have done, even knowingly, unknowingly, whatever is done, the Master keeps an account of all of that, and when He transfers it, He gives all of that wealth to that devotee. So, one should not feel dejected about doing his meditation. We should remember that, whatever we are doing, we will get the fruit of this for sure. Only thing is, unlike earlier times, where that fruit would come immediately when one would meditate, this is now being collected by the Master, and it is only to your account, that will come to you, at an appropriate time.
Question :
Is numbness in the body a good way to tell how close you are to the Eye Center and the Form of the Master? For example, if most of your body goes numb, are you getting close?
Baba Ji :
When we concentrate at the back of the Eye Center and we do our meditation, we do our Simran, then there is a numbness that comes when the mind settles down. Then, our hands and legs start becoming numb together. If we are just getting numbness in one foot, or one hand, or someplace like that, then that could be for some other reason. But, when all the four limbs are becoming numb at the same time, then it is because of the focus that we have at the back of the Eye Center and the Simran that we are doing. Now, however, that does not mean that you have reached the Third Eye. It happens that, for that, there is a while to go. But this happens when the mind gets still and we are doing Simran at the back of the Eye Center. The body becoming numb is a good measure of the fact that we are doing the Simran and concentration in the right way. And we should, more and more, do our meditation as a result.
Question :
After a group meditation, Master Kirpal would ask, specifically, what everyone saw inside, sun, moon, stars, etc. While Sant Ji said in a talk, one should not concern one's self with any experiences. Are these two at all compatible? And, with this mind, what should be the guidelines in determining one's progress in one's meditation, if experience is not important?
Baba Ji :
So, the experiences that we get when we are doing our meditation, before we have crossed the Third Eye, or we have reached the Third Eye, all those experiences are not experiences which are going to be permanent, or are going to have a long value, where you will be able to, again and again, have that experience. They will come and go. They are both fleeting. So, therefore, we should not focus on our experiences until the time we come to the back of the Eye Center. So, when we sit for our meditation and we focus at the back of the Eye Center, sometimes, when we are doing well there, and we are focused and calm, we can see perhaps light, we can hear some Sound Current also. But then, the same person, when he meditates after that, for maybe several days, he may not get any experience like that. So, we should not get into these frustrations or dejections about whether we had experience now, we are not having, and so on and so forth. Because, when we have such experiences then, after that, we don't have them, then we get into thinking what has happened now, whether we have done something wrong. And we spend our time and energies on these things, and we start getting worried. So, we should not worry about these. These are experiences, which will come and go. We should stay focused in terms of doing our Simran at the back of the Eye Center, and just remain focused there. Do that as an objective.
Question :
When the Master is speaking and we are waiting for translation, should we focus on doing Simran, or listening to the words, even though we do not understand?
Baba Ji :
When we are listening to Satsang, then we should focus on the words being said, even if we are not understanding it. Because, when we do Simran while we are listening to Satsang then, oftentimes, we will not understand the complete Satsang. It is very good to do Simran, but we should do Simran at other times. When we are listening to Satsang, we should stay focused on the words and try to understand that Satsang. So, when you are listening to the translation, what you have understood from that translation, you can think about that. And spend your time in trying to understand and focus on what has been said there. And mull it over till the next translation comes. And when the next translation comes, you can do the same, and so on; because, that way, you will listen and you will internalize that Satsang. Otherwise, we listen to Satsang, and then we forget it.
Question :
I was initiated by Sant Ji. And, sometimes, it can be difficult to contemplate His Form. Since my time with Baba Ji is so much more recent, it's much easier to remember Baba Ji. Is there any value to contemplate on Baba Ji, even though He did not initiate me? What should I do when I'm trying to contemplate Sant Ji and I keep thinking of Baba Ji?
Baba Ji :
It often happens that, when we are seeing Baba Ji in front of us, that we quickly contemplate His Form when we are sitting for meditation. The correct thing to do is to contemplate on the Master Who has given you Naam, and Who has initiated you, and to contemplate His Form. Now, when we are doing this, if it is not possible, and we are unable to do that contemplation, it doesn't matter. We can do our Simran in the dark there and focus on the Five Names that have been given and, continuously, keep doing the Simran at the back of the Eye Center, even if no image of any Master is coming there. And once the mind becomes purer, the Master is sitting within you, your Master is sitting within you, He will definitely give you His contemplation. So, we should not think on those lines. And when we are doing this meditation, and we are trying to contemplate the Form of our own Master, and in-between we get the glimpse of some other Master, or Baba Ji, for example, then it doesn't matter. We should continue to do our Simran and continue to do what we are doing.
Question :
If one's karma involves the hurting of feelings of someone, when the Master takes on
one's karma, is the pain or the hurt ever changed or relieved for that someone by the Master's Grace?
Baba Ji :
So, Swami Ji Maharaj has talked on this topic, and He has given various instances on this kind of a situation. Firstly, we should not hurt people, because we are satsangis. And it is not correct to hurt someone else and someone else's heart. But, if that has happened, then we should beg for forgiveness from that person and, if not once, we can beg for forgiveness the second time, or the third time, possibly. But, if the person is not willing to listen, and is not willing to forgive, then he is responsible to the Guru, to the Master of this disciple. So, we need not be burdened by that sin on a never-ending basis.
Question :
If some friend, or a member of the family, is sick, can we sit near that person and do Simran in silence? Will this help that person? The same question, if a person is having a nightmare?
Baba Ji :
The effect of Simran is there, so there is a very salutary effect of Simran when we do it like this. But each one in this world has his own karmas, and his own debts, to pay. So, when we do Simran with the intention of reducing someone else's pain, then we are effectively taking on those karmas while we are doing Simran. We should always try to do Simran for going on the Path within, and for going and meeting God Almighty. We should not do our Simran with these kinds of intentions. You can always help that person who is suffering at a physical level. You can do his seva. You can get him medicine. Get him a doctor, or do whatever help you want, at a physical level. But, when we do Simran with the intention of reducing the karmas of that person, then we are effectively taking over those karmas.
Question :
Does it happen accidentally that so many of us become sick during the meditation program? Or, is it part of the cleaning of karmas in the body?
Baba Ji :
So, this sickness also comes because of the atmosphere and this environment, or the food also. And it is also because of the karmas. So, both of these are happening.
Question :
Baba Ji, when the Master gives His Grace, for example, through His Darshan, or
Parshad, or Satsang, or anything else, to a disciple who is not His own disciple, does He suffer by taking on the karmas of that disciple?
Baba Ji :
When new people come and they take Darshan, or they listen to Satsang, or take Prashad, it is the Grace of the Masters with which some of the karmas get reduced. And now, the Masters do not assume those karmas. So, that is simply the Grace of the Master in the company of the Masters. So, a lot of these karmas also get reduced, the Kriyaman that we have incurred during this life. Some of that gets lightened.
Question :
When we sit for two and a half hours, does it matter if we did the Simran first, or the Bhajan first?
Baba Ji :
So, when we sit for meditation for two and a half hours, then we should focus on the cleansing of the mind, which is done by Simran and Dhyan, the recitation of the Naam. So, we should do that and focus our energies on that. And, with that, once the mind gets still, gets purer, then we can even hear the Sound Currents. The Sound Currents we can hear later but, like I have said earlier, the focus has to be on the recitation of the Naam and the contemplation of the Master within.
Question :
When our Third Eye opens and we first see our soul, do we see how dirty she still is?
Baba Ji :
The soul never gets impure. The soul is an element of God Almighty and it always remains pure. So, when we see the soul within, we see the form of the soul at the back of the Eye Center, there is no impurity of that in that soul. And that is in the form of Sound Current, and it is in the form of Light. So, when the mind creates deeds and, with these deeds, there is an impurity that we build up, that impurity is in the mind, and it all is on the mind, and not on the soul. There is a knot tied between the mind and the soul, which cannot be untied. It is tied in Brahm. And, because of that, the soul has to always accompany the mind. And the impurities that the mind has collected over all of its lives, it has to go and suffer for those impurities. And, because of the knot that is tied with the mind, the soul also has to go and suffer all of that. So, if this knot is untied, then the soul can easily go and reach its own home. And the mind also can go and reach its own home.
Question :
Should we use a chapatti to wipe clean our trays, so as not to throw away Parshad? Baba Ji:
So, there is no need. As a satsangi, we should not leave any food. We should not leave something like a chapatti inside, or some rice inside, or some other vegetable, or things like that. But, otherwise, there is no need to clean the plate in that form. There is no need to do that. That's a normal thing to happen.Question :
From the time our Third Eye opens until we see the Radiant Form of the Master, how much purification must happen?
Baba Ji :
So, once the soul has crossed the Eye Center, it has come to the Third Eye, or the Tenth Door, then, thereafter, it doesn't take too long to see the Radiant Form of the Master within. Automatically, the soul gets sky bound, it sees the sun, the moon, and stars, and then sees the Radiant Form of the Master within. So, only when we have to clear these nine doors outside, and withdraw our attention of the soul, and get it to the back of the Eye Center, only that takes a lot of time and purification.
Ashok: This question is not very clear.
Question: What is the meaning of the Five Charged Names of Simran?
Baba Ji: {no response}
Question :
In a satsangi family with children, what are the guidelines for raising them to get initiation? And, at what age can they get the gift of initiation?
Baba Ji :
So, when the children grow up and they naturally do their studies and they grow up, we should, as satsangi families, try to inculcate a sense of Satsang within them, where we can ask them to sit for Satsangs, or we can talk to them about the Masters, and talk to them a little bit about the Sant Mat and spirituality, and get them to get interested in the Path.
Question :
When we meditate, the benefits of the meditation are held in reserve for us. If we meditate and fall asleep, does the meditation count? Or, is the sleep time subtracted from the reserve that Master keeps for us? To stay awake, the Masters would meditate in cold rivers and tie their hair to the wall to stay awake. What if the hair is short, or we are bald, or there is no river, how can we stay awake and please the Master?
Baba Ji :
When we sit for meditation, many times we get the sleep for several reasons. Sometimes, even because of a higher sugar level in the blood, we feel sleepy. Or we are tired. Or, oftentimes, the mind when it becomes still when we become calm because of that, even that induces sleep. So, there are several reasons why we go into sleep when we are doing meditation. Now, when we sleep that, of course, is not counted for meditation. But, it is like this, that if a mill worker goes to the mill, and he gives his attendance every day, and he doesn't work there in the mill, he just goes and gives his attendance. And, at the end of the month, he still gets his payment. So, that is, at least, there is a duty. So, instead of not sitting, it is better to sit and sleep. So, that is how it is. But, if we want to progress within, then we should stay alert, and we should do our Simran Dhyan and try to do it consciously. So, if we feel very sleepy, then we can, maybe, just take a short stroll and, with that, we get our sleep away, and then we again sit back for meditation.